NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Fri May 18, 2018 8:36 am



Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:HC and OHF is working with GTHL to be more than just a rep league. Their metric will be number of players registered in HC programs (be it rep or not) in fact the leverage will go back to the house league programs and the only rep teams that will get approval going forward that have a house league affiliate AND draws sufficient numbers to justify their GTHL team entries application due each January.

I believe 'AAA' will not start until MPW and 'AA' not until Major Atom. So Minor Atom 'A' will be the new 'AAA' for nine year olds. And based on the OHF document dated March 3rd, 2018 eight year olds will not be permitted to play in GTHL as they will have to remain in Novice programming starting in 2019-20 as the "concept of any 8 year old exceptional player does not exist".


You really think the G will stand to lose their bread and butter system? What happens to the AAA clubs that have serious ice contracts at private facilities?


As I said for GTHL to maintain membership with OHF and in turn HC will have to get overall HC minor particpation in the GTHL jurisdiction up and not just maximize GTHL 'A', 'AA', and 'AAA' registrants. This is the greed of the GTHL and it HAS TO STOP. They will have to innovate and tracking HC participation by birth year. This is why clubs with no viable house league program will die off. And the insular world of "AAA" will be eroded just like NYHL will be for Novice and younger.


What you have just described, is a sure fire way to increase the number of elite, non-HC affiliated specialized hockey programs. That is the outcome if you think HC and OHF can pressure the GTHL as you suggest.

The GTHL rep resource machine has spread to others like OMHA due to geography and pressures. I don't think that genie can go back into the bottle as you suggest OHF and HC are suggesting.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Fri May 18, 2018 9:08 am

Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
As I said for GTHL to maintain membership with OHF and in turn HC will have to get overall HC minor particpation in the GTHL jurisdiction up and not just maximize GTHL 'A', 'AA', and 'AAA' registrants. This is the greed of the GTHL and it HAS TO STOP. They will have to innovate and tracking HC participation by birth year. This is why clubs with no viable house league program will die off. And the insular world of "AAA" will be eroded just like NYHL will be for Novice and younger.


What you have just described, is a sure fire way to increase the number of elite, non-HC affiliated specialized hockey programs. That is the outcome if you think HC and OHF can pressure the GTHL as you suggest.

The GTHL rep resource machine has spread to others like OMHA due to geography and pressures. I don't think that genie can go back into the bottle as you suggest OHF and HC are suggesting.


Spring/summer hockey can always be full ice and HC and Sport Canada wants kids to do outdoor activities during off-season anyway so that avenue is always open for those who want hockey more than 7-8 months. This is why we have Pro Hockey Development running elite tourneys as we speak. If nut-job parents want their little Johnny or Suzzy to play in non-HC leagues like ORHL during the hockey season then let those morons drive around far and wide. Genies can always go back in bottle...it just takes courage and commitment. It is about increasing overall participation for HC-compliant leagues, clubs and associations and not just the the divisions that are insular anyway like 'AAA' and to a lesser extent 'AA'.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Fri May 18, 2018 9:44 am

Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:What you have just described, is a sure fire way to increase the number of elite, non-HC affiliated specialized hockey programs. That is the outcome if you think HC and OHF can pressure the GTHL as you suggest.

The GTHL rep resource machine has spread to others like OMHA due to geography and pressures. I don't think that genie can go back into the bottle as you suggest OHF and HC are suggesting.


Spring/summer hockey can always be full ice and HC and Sport Canada wants kids to do outdoor activities during off-season anyway so that avenue is always open for those who want hockey more than 7-8 months. Genies can always go back in bottle...it just takes courage and commitment. It is about increasing overall participation for HC-compliant leagues, clubs and associations and not just the the divisions that are insular anyway like 'AAA' and to a lesser extent 'AA'.


It comes down to maintaining control of ice contracts. What you have tried to present, is a situation where a lot of ice contracts go back to the pool. If that were to occur then the one thing that prevents a parallel elite hockey option to be viable becomes available. If you can get the private ice for a sufficient number of teams, you will end up with high quality options to HC programs. Ice availability is the only thing that is protecting hockey. You look across the board at all the other youth sports, and all of them have these two parallel options now.

There is absolutely no way the rep programming in the GTA will give up their ice. Perhaps over the course of a decade or two, if registrations grew substantially at the house league base it would slowly get clawed back. But certainly no policy will go in place right off the bat that threatens the current setup. There is simply too much at risk to clubs breaking away from HC.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Fri May 18, 2018 10:15 am

Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
It comes down to maintaining control of ice contracts. What you have tried to present, is a situation where a lot of ice contracts go back to the pool. If that were to occur then the one thing that prevents a parallel elite hockey option to be viable becomes available. If you can get the private ice for a sufficient number of teams, you will end up with high quality options to HC programs. Ice availability is the only thing that is protecting hockey. You look across the board at all the other youth sports, and all of them have these two parallel options now.

There is absolutely no way the rep programming in the GTA will give up their ice. Perhaps over the course of a decade or two, if registrations grew substantially at the house league base it would slowly get clawed back. But certainly no policy will go in place right off the bat that threatens the current setup. There is simply too much at risk to clubs breaking away from HC.


In Minor Atom, there will be a LOT MORE 'A' teams replacing those 'AA' and 'AAA' teams so those 'A' clubs/teams will now take that ice released by 'AA' and 'AAA'. In Major Atom, the addition of 'AA' will once again take some players from 'A' the previous season. And introduction of 'AAA' in Minor PW will simply take the top players from 'AA' (and maybe some from 'A').

So the ice will still be taken by GTHL, it just means that from Novice to Minor Atom, more kids will top out at 'A'' with a new category ('AA' and 'AAA' added one season at a time. It is just a restructuring or the hierarchy of HC-compliant programs. The non compliant leagues will never get the community subsidized municipal arenas anyway.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Fri May 18, 2018 1:13 pm

Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:There is absolutely no way the rep programming in the GTA will give up their ice. Perhaps over the course of a decade or two, if registrations grew substantially at the house league base it would slowly get clawed back. But certainly no policy will go in place right off the bat that threatens the current setup. There is simply too much at risk to clubs breaking away from HC.


In Minor Atom, there will be a LOT MORE 'A' teams replacing those 'AA' and 'AAA' teams so those 'A' clubs/teams will now take that ice released by 'AA' and 'AAA'. In Major Atom, the addition of 'AA' will once again take some players from 'A' the previous season. And introduction of 'AAA' in Minor PW will simply take the top players from 'AA' (and maybe some from 'A').

So the ice will still be taken by GTHL, it just means that from Novice to Minor Atom, more kids will top out at 'A'' with a new category ('AA' and 'AAA' added one season at a time. It is just a restructuring or the hierarchy of HC-compliant programs. The non compliant leagues will never get the community subsidized municipal arenas anyway.[/quote]

The AAA orgs almost exclusively use private ice in the G. Each team in AAA generally uses more ice than A or AA. Many of the non-HL rep orgs in A/AA also use private ice heavily.

If you are saying all the ice will get re-allocated, then you are good.

BTW, you don't have to be HC compliant to get municipal ice. You can apply for it and get allocated from the same bucket in Toronto based on your resident allocation. The AAA clubs in the G could apply for practice ice from the city in this way, they choose not to because they are already covered on private ice. Similarly, an elite club, that is not HC affiliate can also apply for this ice.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Fri May 18, 2018 1:37 pm

Guest wrote:
BTW, you don't have to be HC compliant to get municipal ice. You can apply for it and get allocated from the same bucket in Toronto based on your resident allocation. The AAA clubs in the G could apply for practice ice from the city in this way, they choose not to because they are already covered on private ice. Similarly, an elite club, that is not HC affiliate can also apply for this ice.


That is true you don't need to be a HC compliant but to get the community youth rates (HL and Select) and competitive youth rates (rep 'A', 'AA','AAA') you have to still provide constituation, by-laws, non-profit reg#, list of members (age, addresses, tel#) financials in a certain format that disclose payments to related parties etc. If not then clubs must pay the commercial rate which sometimes is higher than the market rate at such facilities in severe state of disrepair like Vaughan IcePlex or Canlan VicPark.

So non-compliant clubs like ORHL registration fees and participation cost is a small fortune even before factoring in time and costs of extensive commuting and paid coaches.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Fri May 18, 2018 3:02 pm

Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
BTW, you don't have to be HC compliant to get municipal ice. You can apply for it and get allocated from the same bucket in Toronto based on your resident allocation. The AAA clubs in the G could apply for practice ice from the city in this way, they choose not to because they are already covered on private ice. Similarly, an elite club, that is not HC affiliate can also apply for this ice.


That is true you don't need to be a HC compliant but to get the community youth rates (HL and Select) and competitive youth rates (rep 'A', 'AA','AAA') you have to still provide constituation, by-laws, non-profit reg#, list of members (age, addresses, tel#) financials in a certain format that disclose payments to related parties etc. If not then clubs must pay the commercial rate which sometimes is higher than the market rate at such facilities in severe state of disrepair like Vaughan IcePlex or Canlan VicPark.

So non-compliant clubs like ORHL registration fees and participation cost is a small fortune even before factoring in time and costs of extensive commuting and paid coaches.


If true, the requirements you mention are not onerous. It is not hard to register as a non-profit. I would move that many of the GTHL non-HL clubs are non-profit on paper, but have lots of commercial interests behind the scenes. And successfully get city ice. I would think most ORHL clubs would quite easily be able to register as non-profits, if they are already not registered that way. Many GTHL clubs are privately owned - think Stuart Hyman - yet their registration numbers are used to apply for and receive city game ice allocations at a minimum. Many gate practice ice allocations as well. All the AAA clubs operating on private ice, and very likely to not be non-profit, have their membership numbers used towards claiming city game ice allocations.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Fri May 18, 2018 3:44 pm

Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
I can remember numerous of times my son playing more than 1 select game in a week.
As a matter of fact, we had 3 games in one week once. So, I am still laughing.


Yeah that’s because the NYHL’s other major weakness is scheduling. This year my son’s team would routinely go 2-3 weeks without a game then play 3 in 8 days. East end teams would play each other in west end while west end teams played in Vaughan. Fun times.


So, lets agree that it is going be disaster next year.


It will be fine. You can't create alternative leagues if you don't have the ice. Teams will want to be on the ice 22 times a season will be with the nyhl in cross ice rather than some smaller subset of games with their association's in house program. Everyone is attracted to ice time. To say they are not is ridiculous.


Teams will be pushing for the ice time the NYHL can provide. You will see parents taking their kids out of alternatives unless they have equivalent or better. Wait for the fall.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Fri May 18, 2018 4:33 pm

Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
It will be fine. You can't create alternative leagues if you don't have the ice. Teams will want to be on the ice 22 times a season will be with the nyhl in cross ice rather than some smaller subset of games with their association's in house program. Everyone is attracted to ice time. To say they are not is ridiculous.


Teams will be pushing for the ice time the NYHL can provide. You will see parents taking their kids out of alternatives unless they have equivalent or better. Wait for the fall.


Parents of Minor Novice and younger who will be in CDS LL (of FH, NYK, LF, NT) program will love not having to go to AlPal or CommanderPark or Habitant to games. Plus those four clubs have well run rinks and well-educated residents who will not give much ice if any to NYHL out of their community youth allocation at their main arena(s).
That leaves a big hole that part of the city for NYHL scheduling especially once the Scarboro and East York clubs decide to form their own CDS LL. Essentially NYHL will become just a west end league for kids born in 2011 and younger and disintegrate further from there. West end clubs are followers and not leaders especially in the north west end. Plus parents will know that it is about being on the ice once your arrive at the rink and bonding with your teammates and coaches and NOT in long car rides NOR waiting on the bench for every third shift that drives skills development.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Fri May 18, 2018 5:48 pm

Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
It comes down to maintaining control of ice contracts. What you have tried to present, is a situation where a lot of ice contracts go back to the pool. If that were to occur then the one thing that prevents a parallel elite hockey option to be viable becomes available. If you can get the private ice for a sufficient number of teams, you will end up with high quality options to HC programs. Ice availability is the only thing that is protecting hockey. You look across the board at all the other youth sports, and all of them have these two parallel options now.

There is absolutely no way the rep programming in the GTA will give up their ice. Perhaps over the course of a decade or two, if registrations grew substantially at the house league base it would slowly get clawed back. But certainly no policy will go in place right off the bat that threatens the current setup. There is simply too much at risk to clubs breaking away from HC.


In Minor Atom, there will be a LOT MORE 'A' teams replacing those 'AA' and 'AAA' teams so those 'A' clubs/teams will now take that ice released by 'AA' and 'AAA'. In Major Atom, the addition of 'AA' will once again take some players from 'A' the previous season. And introduction of 'AAA' in Minor PW will simply take the top players from 'AA' (and maybe some from 'A').

So the ice will still be taken by GTHL, it just means that from Novice to Minor Atom, more kids will top out at 'A'' with a new category ('AA' and 'AAA' added one season at a time. It is just a restructuring or the hierarchy of HC-compliant programs. The non compliant leagues will never get the community subsidized municipal arenas anyway.

you make is sound like the GTHL has a choice. They don't. They don't own the rinks and the allotments get adjusted based on participation. If more kids are playing elsewhere the ice allotments will shift.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Fri May 18, 2018 6:00 pm

Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:


In Minor Atom, there will be a LOT MORE 'A' teams replacing those 'AA' and 'AAA' teams so those 'A' clubs/teams will now take that ice released by 'AA' and 'AAA'. In Major Atom, the addition of 'AA' will once again take some players from 'A' the previous season. And introduction of 'AAA' in Minor PW will simply take the top players from 'AA' (and maybe some from 'A').

So the ice will still be taken by GTHL, it just means that from Novice to Minor Atom, more kids will top out at 'A'' with a new category ('AA' and 'AAA' added one season at a time. It is just a restructuring or the hierarchy of HC-compliant programs. The non compliant leagues will never get the community subsidized municipal arenas anyway.

you make is sound like the GTHL has a choice. They don't. They don't own the rinks and the allotments get adjusted based on participation. If more kids are playing elsewhere the ice allotments will shift.


GTHL has clout especially at their home rink Pond, Chesswood and Westwood. That is 13 pads right there.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Fri May 18, 2018 11:22 pm

Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
There is absolutely no way the rep programming in the GTA will give up their ice. Perhaps over the course of a decade or two, if registrations grew substantially at the house league base it would slowly get clawed back. But certainly no policy will go in place right off the bat that threatens the current setup. There is simply too much at risk to clubs breaking away from HC.


In Minor Atom, there will be a LOT MORE 'A' teams replacing those 'AA' and 'AAA' teams so those 'A' clubs/teams will now take that ice released by 'AA' and 'AAA'. In Major Atom, the addition of 'AA' will once again take some players from 'A' the previous season. And introduction of 'AAA' in Minor PW will simply take the top players from 'AA' (and maybe some from 'A').

So the ice will still be taken by GTHL, it just means that from Novice to Minor Atom, more kids will top out at 'A'' with a new category ('AA' and 'AAA' added one season at a time. It is just a restructuring or the hierarchy of HC-compliant programs. The non compliant leagues will never get the community subsidized municipal arenas anyway.

you make is sound like the GTHL has a choice. They don't. They don't own the rinks and the allotments get adjusted based on participation. If more kids are playing elsewhere the ice allotments will shift.


Actually they could get more ice if kids leave. Assuming nyhl numbers go down more so, then gthl game ice allocations may actually go up. That 25% bucket for competitive youth still gives the same total hours. If as a percentage of total registrations in that block gthl makes up a higher percentage of the total with nyhl going down a lot, then the G gets more ice.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Fri May 18, 2018 11:30 pm

NYHL is $hit $how anyway. Because it is under the guise of "community hockey", there are no residency requirements as long as they play a proper house league (except VR, ARD and JCC) so their Novice and younger is pretty much the wild wild west since, except for underagers, can't be rostered on G teams anyway.

The residency or lack there of is going to go soon if the NYHL doesn't fold first.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Sat May 19, 2018 1:31 pm

Guest wrote:NYHL is $hit $how anyway. Because it is under the guise of "community hockey", there are no residency requirements as long as they play a proper house league (except VR, ARD and JCC) so their Novice and younger is pretty much the wild wild west since, except for underagers, can't be rostered on G teams anyway.

The residency or lack there of is going to go soon if the NYHL doesn't fold first.


Tyke (age 7) in OMHA is what Minor Novice is in NYHL and this coming season OMHA is already confirmed to be fully compliant with modified ice.
OMHA does not allow travel hockey for IP (U6 or IP6) under any circumstances. It is 100% skills based and not scorekeeping or standings.

NYHL is essentially travel hockey for house league but those teams must never be absent for HL. Reality is convenors look the other way although for pubic consumption they allow players to miss house league if a third party doesn't draw attention to it via a coach or parent. Of course by looking the other way they've compromised the integrity of the HL program

So for IP6 (called Tyke in NYHL) should not be allowed to play Select whether or not it is modified ice. Why? Because the area where NYHL plays is way to much travel for players ages 5 and 6. It is then essentially not different then a non HC-compliant league which benefits by getting subsidized ice and a group of players not playing in the G or O (since no residency requirements, just a tiny $25 per player import fee with no import maximum.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Sat May 19, 2018 10:03 pm

Nyhl give 1 day teams will not play. Problem is that HL is twice per week so players miss HL many times per year due to nyhl and tournaments, and more when they realize there is no consequences for skipping HL.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Sat May 19, 2018 10:40 pm

Guys you don't get it. The nyhl gives the hockey enthusiasts the market they want to help them build their G teams in minor atom. It won't go away because the coaches want and need the ice the nyhl has, and want the competition against other teams at the right level again provided by the nyhl. The G has given this market to the nyhl. It is the way hockey is run in these parts. They have the ice, they are the only provider you can reasonably go to, there will not be a reduction in demand. Just wait for the fall and you will see.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Sat May 19, 2018 10:54 pm

Guest wrote:Guys you don't get it. The nyhl gives the hockey enthusiasts the market they want to help them build their G teams in minor atom. It won't go away because the coaches want and need the ice the nyhl has, and want the competition against other teams at the right level again provided by the nyhl. The G has given this market to the nyhl. It is the way hockey is run in these parts. They have the ice, they are the only provider you can reasonably go to, there will not be a reduction in demand. Just wait for the fall and you will see.


This only helps AAA teams, the rest are better off without the nyhl until minor atom.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Sun May 20, 2018 1:38 am

I like the OMHA system better. I'd like to see MHL and NYHL not offer any hockey until minor atom at worst and disbanded at best since they are still unwilling to offer a proper version of modified ice.

That should open the door for Mississauga and Vaughan to have OMHA club/association.
All major urban centres that border Toronto with long borders like Vaughan and Mississauga should not be GTHL only. People in these areas should have a choice.
Vaughan players should have an opportunity to play in York Simcoe since they border King City and Richmond Hill.
Mississauga players should have a choice to be in the same league as Oakville.
Markham is great that they have both options in GTHL and OMHA
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Sun May 20, 2018 1:43 am

Guest wrote:Nyhl give 1 day teams will not play. Problem is that HL is twice per week so players miss HL many times per year due to nyhl and tournaments, and more when they realize there is no consequences for skipping HL.

This is exactly, NYHL themselves don't care if players miss HL completely. Otherwise they wouldn't admit VR. I believe OHF should not allow NYHL to exist since NYHL allows a club like VR which is why other clubs quietly let their teams miss HL without meaningful consequences.

GTHL, NYHL and MHL is all old boys club. I notice in OMHA a lot more females in positions of president.
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Guest

Re: NYHL 2011 and under Cross Ice Fiasco

Postby Guest » Sun May 20, 2018 6:16 am

Guest wrote:I like the OMHA system better. I'd like to see MHL and NYHL not offer any hockey until minor atom at worst and disbanded at best since they are still unwilling to offer a proper version of modified ice.

That should open the door for Mississauga and Vaughan to have OMHA club/association.
All major urban centres that border Toronto with long borders like Vaughan and Mississauga should not be GTHL only. People in these areas should have a choice.
Vaughan players should have an opportunity to play in York Simcoe since they border King City and Richmond Hill.
Mississauga players should have a choice to be in the same league as Oakville.
Markham is great that they have both options in GTHL and OMHA


Are you crazy? The value of the G is that many kids from the suburbs can play in it without issues, and the city has a ton of ice rinks. You can't get that elsewhere.
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